I'm in a similar industry as we supply 11 & 33kV switchgear to some of the
government electrical agencies here in Australia.

What I do is similar. Create a parent block for the power supply inputs of
the relay. A large child block for the current/voltage inputs. I have used
two exploded terminals in another child block for discrete inputs after
suitable modifications and normal relay contacts for any switched contacts
in the IED.

All the blocks I have created are tied to a new table in the catalogue
database called PR (Protection Relays). As we use a relay, I add the
appropriate catalogue and pin list information to the appropriate databases.
When I tie the normal relay contacts to the parent device, ACADE asks if I
really want to move the contact from the relay family to the new PR family.
That is the only problem that will come up.
Electrical will not have any problems with contacts that are remotely
operated. All it really needs is the total number of contacts and what type
they are in the pin list database to check contact numbers and types are
exceeded or not. For more information on how to set the pin lists, lookup
Pin List in the electrical help and go to the advanced section.

You can modify the normal relay contacts and save the modified ones under a
new filename, but I find it easier just to use the normal relay contacts and
it won't break Electrical.

Regards Brad

wrote in message news:6282987@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hello All! I work for an electric distribution company and we are in the
process of switching to ACAD Electrical.

I could use some guidance from you good folks about now. Something that I
have been struggling with is how to model the IED relays we use.
(Intelligent Electronic Device) From our perspective they are control
relays, but rather than having one coil and so many NO and NC contacts, we
have numerous current and potential sensing coils plus digital inputs and
output contacts. Oh, and alarm contacts. All associated with one device.

How should something like that be handled? I'm leaning towards it being more
like a PLC than a control relay. But we really glossed over the PLC stuff
in our training since we didn't think we'd need it. (Big mistake.)

What would be your suggested way of dealing with a complex device like that?
I started off making the power supply the parent object (there is always
just one) and created child symbols for the inputs and outputs, and have
thoughts for doing the sensing coils, but all in all, I have a fear I'm
heading down a bad path.

Does this seem reasonable or am I missing something? Would these be more
like a PLC? They are programmable. My grasp of Electrical is just enough
to be dangerous.

My fear is that there is something inherent in the program that I am going
to break (or at least confuse) by not having NO & NC contacts for a "Control
Relay". I mean, the output contacts can be operated remotely, so the
parent "coil" doesn't really have any direct effect on that contact.

Can you good people point me to anyone that is doing this sort of thing
and/or is using ACAD Electrical in the electric utility field?

wrote in message news:6283439@discussion.autodesk.com...


-Ah! Brilliant! Had not thought of that. Glad I asked first.



-Not sure I follow you here. What do you mean by "exploded terminals"? What
I did was used the geometry we are used to and added all the necessary
attributes in Symbol Builder. Seems to work so far.

Basically, I inserted a terminal and exploded it. The copied the geometry
and needed wire connection points to give me 2 device terminals. Removed all
un-needed attributes and added the required attributes to make it a standard
child block. When I now insert the block, I now associate it to the parent
and have the XREF and such all show up as a proper child, but with no
contact symbol to confuse the issue, just what looks like two terminals to
represent the terminals on the device.



-Good info! But don't be surprised if I come back and ask for help doing
that too. ;-)



-Do you think that would be the same if I'm creating them from scratch?
Particularly if I'm creating them as a "PR" type instead of "CR"?

If you create the blocks from scratch, you won't have a problem with ACADE
asking about the family. It would be easier to copy the existing relay
contact blocks, rename them and modify the family attribute default than to
redraw something that already exists. I thought why bother doing something
like that which is going to take up more room on the HDD when there are
blocks already done and which allow you to change the family with only a
question to answer when I do so.



-I have looked at that some and think I understand. However, what contact
type did you make the inputs in the pinlist? My best guess was 4 which
means undefined. Then too, output contacts can be either -NO or NC depending
on their programming, so how did you set those?

Yes, I did define the inputs using the 4 designation in the pinlist
database. Specifically 4I, 4V, 4T, 4M & 4C to differentiate the different
inputs. I & V for Current and Voltage. T, M & C for Trip, Monitoring &
Close. This allows the program to allocate the correct terminals to the
correct input as needed. The method is set out in the Electrical Help file
under Pin List -> Advanced

-Thanks again for all your input.

Not a problem.

Regards Brad

OK...I think I understand what you are doing here. Not clear on the why though. What advantage do you get by having the parent be a graphical representation of the overall device? I take it the parent isn't really used in your ladder, just nearby for reference? Not to mention the extra level of difficulty in having to have an additional program to locate the children and add pointers to them. Seems that defining a simple parent and children does away with that. In fact, I can't see why your large parent would need something outside the box to reference the children. (Ok. Maybe I do. If it's not on the ladder, there's no reference, right?)

Then too, I'm but a babe in these woods, so I'm certainly willing to see things your way if you can further explain it.

Edited by: drathak on Nov 4, 2009 1:48 PM

Hi Paul and all.

Like drthak I too have just started to look into using Protection Relays - so far GE models such as L90, C60 and F650 to name a few. Also like drthak I was looking at using the plc features to set up one of these - not at all straight forward! I'm pleased I checked the Forum and found this thread.

Paul, am understanding you correctly in that like Brad you create a Parent block and then child blocks for the associated I/O.

Do you work with fixed I/O Relays or modular like the GE relays if so how do you deal with the same base unit with different I/O modules.

My introduction to this area was a full substation control system comprising 10+ relay types with various I/O builds for each type, so currently I see more problems than solutions.

The drawing format you describe with the relays represented at the end at the drawing is how the drawings I have seen were done and I agree with you this is a good way to indicate the relay use throughout the drawing set. The drawings I saw were not produced by ACADE and were produced as two sets SCHEME and WIRING DIAGRAM. There were too many mistakes between the two sets for the wiring diagram to have been automated from the scheme.

This is where we need to improve things for our own work - getting a usable wiring schedule from the system.

Paul as you seem willing to receive emails re your program to pull child I/O references onto the parent block would you be willing to attach the code to a post on this forum then all people reading this can see your method without bothering you. If not is it OK for me to email you?
Like drthak I need to gather as much info as I can before I jump in with both feet (potentially both in one boot - and have to start all over again)

In electrical, you can set a Basic part in the catalogue and then add the
extra module's as additional components. This can be done at the catalogue
level or the component level. If the pin list database is setup, you can
have the proper pins used on the contacts and inputs for the various
modules.

That said, If the relay is modular, it sometimes has a different catalogue
number for the various versions (depending on the manufacturer). We don't
really use modular relays here all that much. When we do, I just type the
catalogue information in and bypass the Catalogue database and pin list
entirely. The majority of our customers supply their relays (getting their
government discount from the manufacturer) and all we get is the catalogue
number, contact/input information and manufacturer along with the relay. No
information on any optional cards that are added or not.

Regards Brad

wrote in message news:6285087@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Paul and all.

Like drthak I too have just started to look into using Protection Relays -
so far GE models such as L90, C60 and F650 to name a few. Also like drthak I
was looking at using the plc features to set up one of these - not at all
straight forward! I'm pleased I checked the Forum and found this thread.

Paul, am understanding you correctly in that like Brad you create a Parent
block and then child blocks for the associated I/O.

Do you work with fixed I/O Relays or modular like the GE relays if so how do
you deal with the same base unit with different I/O modules.

My introduction to this area was a full substation control system comprising
10+ relay types with various I/O builds for each type, so currently I see
more problems than solutions.

The drawing format you describe with the relays represented at the end at
the drawing is how the drawings I have seen were done and I agree with you
this is a good way to indicate the relay use throughout the drawing set. The
drawings I saw were not produced by ACADE and were produced as two sets
SCHEME and WIRING DIAGRAM. There were too many mistakes between the two sets
for the wiring diagram to have been automated from the scheme.

This is where we need to improve things for our own work - getting a usable
wiring schedule from the system.

Paul as you seem willing to receive emails re your program to pull child I/O
references onto the parent block would you be willing to attach the code to
a post on this forum then all people reading this can see your method
without bothering you. If not is it OK for me to email you?
Like drthak I need to gather as much info as I can before I jump in with
both feet (potentially both in one boot - and have to start all over again)

No, we don't have the relay layout on the dwgs. We utilize the XREF function
of electrical. That's were the co-ordinates of the contacts/inputs are
placed next to the parent block. At the child blocks there is a xref that
points back to the parent. Depending on the display choice, you can have a
graphical representation, table, and unused contacts can be displayed or
not.

As most of our relays are free issue by the client, they already have the
manuals in their hand. If we purchase and provide the relay, we insert
copies of the relay manuals into the manuals we provide.

We have only had to provide the relay layouts once to one customer, and they
used an extremely complicated system of drawings. They had 15 schematic
drawings for each panel, not including the relay layouts, labels, and tables
with all the fuses and terminals on them. I redrew their drawing and took it
all down to 2 schematics per panel (1 HV AC and DC control).

Regards Brad

wrote in message news:6285868@discussion.autodesk.com...
Hi Brad,

Do you use relay layouts at the end of your drawing set like Paul does?
As a newbie to protection panels I have only seen one example of scheme
drawings and they used this method it was hand updated and easily missed
during drawing revisions.

Regards
David