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Replies:
16
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Last Post:
Feb 3, 2009 5:12 AM
Last Post By: jmcintyre
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Posts:
107
Registered:
04/17/05
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Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 29, 2008 10:45 PM
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I have been using autocadd since 1986, am now using ADT 2006 - probably about 30% of it's potential. All my work is residential (2 man architectural office). Since work is slow this would be a good time for me to get to that copy off Architecture 2008 thats been sitting on the shelf. I would like to do it right this time instead of the years of band-aid approaches just to get it done on time. I really want to set it up right this time.
My question is: Since I am going to spend time almost going back to basics to get Architecture 2008 set up completely and correctly, would I be just as well off diving into Revit? I realize there will be fundamental changes to learn that I wouldn't have with Architecture 2008 but would the effort pay of for a small residential firm?
I think I should post this in the revit discussion group also
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 29, 2008 10:59 PM
in response to: docbarb
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In my opinion.... for what's it's
worth... is to stick with ACA and get the VisionRez add-on
for ACA. VisionRez is tailor made for residential and
light commerical work... most of the work is already done for you. Check it out at I am a user of visionrez... not a
salesman.
I
have been using autocadd since 1986, am now using ADT 2006 - probably about
30% of it's potential. All my work is residential (2 man architectural
office). Since work is slow this would be a good time for me to get to that
copy off Architecture 2008 thats been sitting on the shelf. I would like to do
it right this time instead of the years of band-aid approaches just to get it
done on time. I really want to set it up right this time. My question is:
Since I am going to spend time almost going back to basics to get Architecture
2008 set up completely and correctly, would I be just as well off diving into
Revit? I realize there will be fundamental changes to learn that I wouldn't
have with Architecture 2008 but would the effort pay of for a small
residential firm? I think I should post this in the revit discussion group
also
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Posts:
470
Registered:
09/04/07
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 1:19 PM
in response to: Ted
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I agree with Ted, i think you would be better off sticking with the familiar surroundings of ACA.
The hardest part about learning Revit is trying to forget what you know about Autocad. With over 20yrs of use, i'd assume you would find that rather difficult.
You would be better off installing ACA 08 and going through all of the tutorials with your spare time. You are sure to pick up a trick or two that will speed up your workflow and they are also a good introduction to some of the more advanced features.
Learning Revit on your own may well send you insane, (especially after 20+yrs of using Autocad), so if you do decide to give it a go i'd suggest attending an introductory course to ease the pain.
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Posts:
263
Registered:
11/10/08
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 3:51 PM
in response to: mixtup
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Others in my office said the same thing to me about Revit. I have been using AutoCAD since 1988 and transitioned to ADT3.3, ADT2005, and now ACA2008. I'd say I use ACA to about 40% of its potential, but know how to use it closer to 80% or more (others in the office are closer to 10-15%, so we try to find a common ground). The office as a whole is transitioning to Revit for any new projects with additions (we do mostly public school work), and being the "CAD Guru" for my studio they wanted me to get ahead of the curve for when the rest of the users hit it later. I went through the tutorials and I have to say, I am far from being "insane" and not only do I still have all of my hair, it needs a cutting.
The biggest thing about Revit for me was the COMPLETELY different interface. If you go into it thinking it will do what you do right now better and faster, it will probably drive you nuts. It does many many things better, and at least just as fast, as ACA but it will take time to learn the system to see that. Our instant gratification society doesn't lend itself to that type of change. But, the same reason I know ACA better than those around me is the same reason Revit wasn't nearly so frustrating - I have faith that the learning curve is worth it. Having that faith in ACA caused many problems as those who lacked the faith resisted learning the program and insisted on sticking with circles-and-lines decimated the potential efficiency. Revit doesn't give users as much flexibility - which is a good thing. Either use it correctly, or don't use it at all.
For a small office, it should be easier to use a program such as Revit, or even ACA more effectively. If it were me, it would depend largely on whether the business would use the additional features and benefits of Revit. If you aren't doing energy reviews and benefiting from the parametric design concepts, Revit may not be for you. However, bear in mind that ACA will not be around forever. It's years are numbered, unfortunately. The writing is on the wall, which is why I was more than happy to learn Revit. As they say, you either lead, follow, or get out of the way. With ACA, I could only lead for so much further but with Revit, it is the future and leaders are stepping forward now.
If you decide that ACA is the best path for you, which is quite likely, learning it and using it as effectively as possible is the way to go. There is so much built into the program, and much more still that can be customized, that the return on investment should be quite noticeable. It is a great program for what it does.
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 3:30 PM
in response to: docbarb
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For what it's worth, I've chosen to stick with ADT/ACA. I do alot of
residential additions and renovations. I feel that ACA allows me to tailor
my workflow to the particularities of the project.
Thanks,
Rudy Beuc AIA
R. Beuc Architects
wrote in message news:6096329@discussion.autodesk.com...
I have been using autocadd since 1986, am now using ADT 2006 - probably
about 30% of it's potential. All my work is residential (2 man architectural
office). Since work is slow this would be a good time for me to get to that
copy off Architecture 2008 thats been sitting on the shelf. I would like to
do it right this time instead of the years of band-aid approaches just to
get it done on time. I really want to set it up right this time. My question
is: Since I am going to spend time almost going back to basics to get
Architecture 2008 set up completely and correctly, would I be just as well
off diving into Revit? I realize there will be fundamental changes to learn
that I wouldn't have with Architecture 2008 but would the effort pay of for
a small residential firm? I think I should post this in the revit discussion
group also
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 6:21 PM
in response to: Rudy Beuc
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"sjb3d" wrote: "However, bear in mind that ACA will not be around forever. It's years are numbered, unfortunately. The writing is on the wall, which is why I was more than happy to learn Revit". Unfortunately, this is the true but, if you ask Autodesk, they will tell that ADT is not going to die. Autodesk is not investing in ADT, or promoting it, since the 2005 version, so I think it's time to be honest and tell us the truth. I have already decide not to renew my subscription. I am paying 720,00 Euros a year, just to receive Revit propaganda. -- Pedro Aroso http://ferramentasdearquitecto.blogspot.com/"Rudy Beuc" escreveu na mensagem news:6096518@discussion.autodesk.com... For what it's worth, I've chosen to stick with ADT/ACA. I do alot of
residential additions and renovations. I feel that ACA allows me to tailor
my workflow to the particularities of the project.
Thanks,
Rudy Beuc AIA
R. Beuc Architects
wrote in message news:6096329@discussion.autodesk.com...
I have been using autocadd since 1986, am now using ADT 2006 - probably
about 30% of it's potential. All my work is residential (2 man
architectural
office). Since work is slow this would be a good time for me to get to
that
copy off Architecture 2008 thats been sitting on the shelf. I would like
to
do it right this time instead of the years of band-aid approaches just to
get it done on time. I really want to set it up right this time. My
question
is: Since I am going to spend time almost going back to basics to get
Architecture 2008 set up completely and correctly, would I be just as well
off diving into Revit? I realize there will be fundamental changes to
learn
that I wouldn't have with Architecture 2008 but would the effort pay of
for
a small residential firm? I think I should post this in the revit
discussion
group also |
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 6:31 PM
in response to: Pedro Aroso
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...the day Autodesk ceases to offer an AutoCAD based Architectural software is the day I cease to be an Autodesk customer. -Brian Harder "Pedro Aroso" wrote in message news:6096715@discussion.autodesk.com... "sjb3d" wrote: "However, bear in mind that ACA will not be around forever. It's years are numbered, unfortunately. The writing is on the wall, which is why I was more than happy to learn Revit". Unfortunately, this is the true but, if you ask Autodesk, they will tell that ADT is not going to die. Autodesk is not investing in ADT, or promoting it, since the 2005 version, so I think it's time to be honest and tell us the truth. I have already decide not to renew my subscription. I am paying 720,00 Euros a year, just to receive Revit propaganda. -- Pedro Aroso http://ferramentasdearquitecto.blogspot.com/"Rudy Beuc" escreveu na mensagem news:6096518@discussion.autodesk.com... For what it's worth, I've chosen to stick with ADT/ACA. I do alot of
residential additions and renovations. I feel that ACA allows me to tailor
my workflow to the particularities of the project.
Thanks,
Rudy Beuc AIA
R. Beuc Architects
wrote in message news:6096329@discussion.autodesk.com...
I have been using autocadd since 1986, am now using ADT 2006 - probably
about 30% of it's potential. All my work is residential (2 man
architectural
office). Since work is slow this would be a good time for me to get to
that
copy off Architecture 2008 thats been sitting on the shelf. I would like
to
do it right this time instead of the years of band-aid approaches just to
get it done on time. I really want to set it up right this time. My
question
is: Since I am going to spend time almost going back to basics to get
Architecture 2008 set up completely and correctly, would I be just as well
off diving into Revit? I realize there will be fundamental changes to
learn
that I wouldn't have with Architecture 2008 but would the effort pay of
for
a small residential firm? I think I should post this in the revit
discussion
group also |
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Posts:
263
Registered:
11/10/08
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 9:47 PM
in response to: Brian Harder
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...the day Autodesk ceases to offer an AutoCAD based Architectural software
is the day I cease to be an Autodesk customer.
-Brian Harder
"Pedro Aroso" wrote in message
news:6096715@discussion.autodesk.com...
"sjb3d" wrote:
"However, bear in mind that ACA will not be around forever. It's years are
numbered, unfortunately. The writing is on the wall, which is why I was more
than happy to learn Revit".
Unfortunately, this is the true but, if you ask Autodesk, they will tell
that ADT is not going to die.
Autodesk is not investing in ADT, or promoting it, since the 2005 version,
so I think it's time to be honest and tell us the truth.
I have already decide not to renew my subscription. I am paying 720,00 Euros
a year, just to receive Revit propaganda.
Brian, What are you going to switch to at that time? I am curious which competing programs you are looking to jump to for architectural design. Or do you mean you will no longer be an Autodesk customer because you will cease upgrading? Pedro, ACA2008 has many improvements over ADT2005, so the claim they are not investing in it is patently false. However, they are pretty much done promoting it and the AUGI camps have all but zero classes on the program. Additionally, they are heavily promoting and developing Revit and enticing ACA customers with cheaper Revit licenses to try out and get used to. It is my belief that once the Revit sales outpace the ACA sales, ACA will be discontinued. Rather than decry this development plan, you should try to understand it and come to the realization that it is more than likely inevitable. A business needs to be profitable. Developing, promoting, and supporting competing products is not a realistic long term business plan. Revit is the better program. They have developed ADT to be more like Revit to try and ease the transition, not to make ADT/ACA a better competitor. This is of course all just my opinion on the situation, and I am a long time AutoCAD/ADT/ACA devotee. I see it as being similar to the Kodak analogy, where their chemical film products were getting trounced by the development of digital imaging. After years of downturns and layoffs, selloffs and buyouts, it wasn't until they focused and committed their efforts to digital imaging that they have begun getting healthier. They still make chemical film, but much of the production facilities at Kodak Park have been demolished as they curbed production to meet declining demand. CAD users, or at least their employers, are demanding more intelligent software. Revit is that software, ADT/ACA unfortunately is not. I'd much prefer ADT/ACA becoming the product of the future because I already know the program very well, but that just isn't the case. I've even tried to sign up for ACA certification exams, but the local testing firm stated they are set up for Revit and can't do ACA at this time. The end of the era is approaching, whether 2 years or 5 years down the road, it will happen. |
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 31, 2008 12:06 AM
in response to: sjb3d
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That was a bit hard to read so please format better.... I think this is where your logic goes awry. Yes, Revit is better with regards to it's parametirics and being a more elegant BM solution, but that does not make it the better program. What makes one "solution" better than the other, is how it fulfills your needs. This frequenty gets lost in the hype. Respectfully, Rudy Beuc AIA R. Beuc Architects wrote in message news:6096891@discussion.autodesk.com... > ...the day Autodesk ceases to offer an AutoCAD based Architectural software > is the day I cease to be an Autodesk customer. > > -Brian Harder > > > "Pedro Aroso" wrote in message news:6096715@discussion.autodesk.com... > "sjb3d" wrote: > "However, bear in mind that ACA will not be around forever. It's years are > numbered, unfortunately. The writing is on the wall, which is why I was more > than happy to learn Revit". > > Unfortunately, this is the true but, if you ask Autodesk, they will tell > that ADT is not going to die. > Autodesk is not investing in ADT, or promoting it, since the 2005 version, so I think it's time to be honest and tell us the truth. > I have already decide not to renew my subscription. I am paying 720,00 Euros > a year, just to receive Revit propaganda. > Brian, What are you going to switch to at that time? I am curious which competing programs you are looking to jump to for architectural design. Or do you mean you will no longer be an Autodesk customer because you will cease upgrading? Pedro, ACA2008 has many improvements over ADT2005, so the claim they are not investing in it is patently false. However, they are pretty much done promoting it and the AUGI camps have all but zero classes on the program. Additionally, they are heavily promoting and developing Revit and enticing ACA customers with cheaper Revit licenses to try out and get used to. It is my belief that once the Revit sales outpace the ACA sales, ACA will be discontinued. Rather than decry this development plan, you should try to understand it and come to the realization that it is more than likely inevitable. A business needs to be profitable. Developing, promoting, and supporting competing products is not a realistic long term business plan. Revit is the better program. They have developed ADT to be more like Revit to try and ease the transition, not to make ADT/ACA a better competitor. This is of course all just my opinion on the situation, and I am a long time AutoCAD/ADT/ACA devotee. I see it as being similar to the Kodak analogy, where their chemical film products were getting trounced by the development of digital imaging. After years of downturns and layoffs, selloffs and buyouts, it wasn't until they focused and committed their efforts to digital imaging that they have begun getting healthier. They still make chemical film, but much of the production facilities at Kodak Park have been demolished as they curbed production to meet declining demand. CAD users, or at least their employers, are demanding more intelligent software. Revit is that software, ADT/ACA unfortunately is not. I'd much prefer ADT/ACA becoming the product of the future because I already know the program very well, but that just isn't the case. I've even tried to sign up for ACA certification exams, but the local testing firm stated they are set up for Revit and can't do ACA at this time. The end of the era is approaching, whether 2 years or 5 years down the road, it will happen. |
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 31, 2008 1:26 PM
in response to: Rudy Beuc
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...What makes one "solution" better than the other, is how it fulfills
your needs....<<< A very true statement: that is why we use both REVIT and ACA (separate projects, each program has it's strengths and weaknesses) and have no plans on dumping one for the other anytime soon. But we are, and only seek in new hires, those that are capable in both programs: single program knowledge (either) has started to surface in our region of the world. So brush up on your skills set if you can at these slow times, whether one or if you can both programs, we all know those more capable are retained/hired over those with lesser abilities. -- Dean Saadallah http://LTisACAD.blogspot.com-- |
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 31, 2008 1:47 PM
in response to: Dean Saadallah
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So brush up on your skills set if you can at these slow times, << Yea, I fell sorry for those who've lost thier job and can't afford the costs of software and hardware to self train. Thanks, Rudy Beuc "Dean Saadallah" wrote in message news:6097068@discussion.autodesk.com... ...What makes one "solution" better than the other, is how it fulfills
your needs....<<< A very true statement: that is why we use both REVIT and ACA (separate projects, each program has it's strengths and weaknesses) and have no plans on dumping one for the other anytime soon. But we are, and only seek in new hires, those that are capable in both programs: single program knowledge (either) has started to surface in our region of the world. So brush up on your skills set if you can at these slow times, whether one or if you can both programs, we all know those more capable are retained/hired over those with lesser abilities. -- Dean Saadallah http://LTisACAD.blogspot.com-- |
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Posts:
263
Registered:
11/10/08
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 31, 2008 2:21 PM
in response to: Rudy Beuc
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That was a bit hard to read so please format better....
Rudy, with you two previous posts, I find it incredible that you would be criticizing others' formatting of posts.
Yes, Revit is better with regards to it's parametirics and being a more
elegant BM solution, but that does not make it the better program.
What makes one "solution" better than the other, is how it fulfills your
needs.
This frequenty gets lost in the hype.
Perhaps I should have stated that it is the better product or asset. You are correct that if your needs do not include the benefits of BIM, or you prefer trying to coordinate little changes throughout a project in lieu of parametric design, that Revit is more than you need and may not be the ideal solution for you. But you must recognize that Revit and ACA are largely competing products, and long term development and support of both is a losing proposition. Chrysler recognized this and ended the Plymouth line; GM hasn't and hasn't turned a profit in NAmerica in how many years? The push for the long term continuation of ACA just isn't reasonable. Make a list of the things that ACA can do that Revit can not, and compare it to the list of things that Revit can do that ACA can not. Our firm is currently using ACA and Revit, but for how long can employers do that? We had trouble finding qualified hires when we were using a single program, what will it be like when trying to find hires with dual capabilities? With how much is spent on training for a single program, how long can employers afford to train for two? It just doesn't make sense for long term success, and it is a fork in the road that everyone will eventually come upon. Autodesk has already put up the road signs, but you are dismissing it as hype. That is all fine and dandy, but don't be pissed off at Autodesk if/when they decide to terminate the ACA line and you aren't prepared for it. They have given you plenty of warning and time to prepare. |
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Dec 31, 2008 4:50 PM
in response to: sjb3d
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I just finished my sixth semester of teaching ADT/ACA to undergraduate
interior design students. We start with basic 2D drafting and end up
with animated rendered walk-throughs. I've developed a good set of
lectures, in-class exercises, assignments, all that.
But I have come to the conclusion that there is simply too much AutoCAD
in AutoCAD Architecture. Users (i.e., designers, not full-time CAD
operators) should have every expectation of being able to realize their
designs without having to master the gearhead aspects of system
variables, dimension style overrrides, STB vs CTB, and so on
just to get drawings out. As a long-time AutoCAD user, programmer, and
instructor, this has been a wrenching decision -- I'm going to have to
bust out of a deep and comfortable rut, and who doesn't hate that? --
but I feel it is a necessary one.
So I will be learning Revit this spring to see if it comes any closer
to the long-promised goal of letting designers be designers, especially
with regards to multi-level projects and drawing set coordination. I
don't know that it does. Frankly, I don't know what I will do if it
doesn't -- there's always ACA, and I still have all my notes, but I'm
looking for a better way.
How far am I willing to stray from the Autodesk fold? Theroretically
speaking, as far as necessary. (As long as it does not involve
VectorWorks -- been there, tried that, and the paradigm shift was too
great. Or the rut too deep, if you will.) Practically speaking, there
is an element of vocational/job training in my teaching, so there are
some marketplace realities to face. With Microstation effectively out
of the architectural interiors market, and Archicad, Datacad, Turbocad,
while excellent, still being such niche players, Revit seems like the
obvious first choice.
But not necessarily the last. The quest is on!
-Bill
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Posts:
8
Registered:
08/09/08
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Feb 1, 2009 3:58 PM
in response to: Bill Gilliss
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Bill I have been there. I spent 2 1/2 years researching and contemplating change. I was worried that if i changed, I wouldn't be able to communicate with consultants back and forth. That couldn't be further from the truth. All programs export their linework into dwg format. Even ACA has to "export" to explode aecobjects to primitive lines. I have learned that years from now autocad will be the butt of stories for the old timers. It will be the equivalent of drawing by hand. Have a read of my experience (below), and make your own decision. http://www.mediafire.com/?ik4g2fnqyzm |
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Posts:
263
Registered:
11/10/08
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Feb 2, 2009 2:00 PM
in response to: leglace
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AutoCAD will likely never be the butt of jokes or compared to drafting by hand. It is still the best 2D CAD drafting program on the market. I've seen drawings created by most cost-effective competing products that were loaded with errors due to the program. Many were raster based and could not handle curves well, yet the designers still used curves because that is what they wanted in the real world end product. AutoCAD has the 2D market share for good reason, and it is not the business tactics of Autodesk.
ADT/ACA is a different story however. It is being constricted by being an AutoCAD vertical product, much as Revit is hindered by not having enough AutoCAD capabilities. Somewhere in the middle is where the ideal likely lies, but whether that can ever be achieved by Revit or ACA is to be seen.
Additionally, ACA does not need to be exported to exploded primitive lines to communicate with consultants. Object enablers allow for more compatability with other comparable Autodesk products. It is important to have consultants that haven't refused to upgrade since R14/2000 in order for communications to work effectively. Similarly, in my experience Revit does not interact particularly well with AutoCAD products and it is much more efficient to either have everything in Revit or nothing at all. That is a double edged sword for Revit as it compels the followers to keep up with the leaders, but it also tends to hold back the leaders so as not to get too far apart from the followers. As with all transitions, it will take time.
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Posts:
8
Registered:
08/09/08
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Feb 2, 2009 8:05 PM
in response to: sjb3d
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AutoCAD will likely never be the butt of jokes or compared to drafting by hand.
I hope you understand when I say this, I am making including myself in this. The next generation of "you know your an old cad draftsman when..." to include old cad methods. Yes, these jokes about vanilla cad are coming. Drawing line by line in cad is still a prerequisite in school. But more and more school's are teaching the programs that are industry specific. CAD being the primary engine of a program will no longer be necessary. You will see the evolution (some people believe it has started already) of programs that instead, add a cad module full of commands we need for geometry. Revit has done this. And there is demand they add more, and I will bet they will to the satisfaction of their customers. The concept of creating a drawing, xreffing it into model space and jumping over to paper space, to create multiple vieports will be a thing of the past. Its just too many steps.
As for object enablers, the problems lies in that each enabler is specific to each version of ADT/ACA. The end user receiving the plans do not know what they are always getting. So its becoming icumbant on the person sending out the plans to include it. And even then, I have found that most cabinet and truss companies are using some generic form of cad, like FastCad or something. So its more common people just convert their objects to native linework and send it out.
The truth is that .dwg is no longer dependant on autocad. Its the new .dxf. People will use it as a common transfer file format.
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Posts:
314
Registered:
09/24/08
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Re: Work is kinda slow so....
Posted:
Feb 2, 2009 10:00 PM
in response to: docbarb
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What in your customising takes so long to port across to ACA2008? It really shouldn't take that long, unless you've heavily modified the interface. You'll note there is no Viz render, but they've improved the internal engine in acad.
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